Talk:Summoner/Archive1
If you would like to add more Strengths and Weaknesses, Be brief. If you would like to be more extensive in the length or detail of the Strength or Weakness, please add it to the Race and Subjob Guide linked at the bottom of the page. The purpose of the section on this page is merely to provide a brief look at the major strengths and weaknesses of the job. Please reserve more in depth discussions for the guide linked at the bottom. --Mierin 12:41, 31 Jan 2006 (PST) Couple of things into the weakness section: "The most MP expensive jobs" needs to have the s at the end removed. Secondly: Let's add "Astral Flow becomes progressively weaker as you level and becomes obsoliete at 70." or to the effect thereof. AF Blood Pacts are just pathetic at 70. The only thing that AF is used for at that level is to eliminate perpetuation costs. Disscuss. --Zero 20:26, 17 June 2006 (PDT) Um...what exactly is a negative about having a lot of MP? A SMN doesn't even necessarily need to get all the MP gear to be good. If you wanted to have the most MP ever, then you got a point when it comes to cost but in the end there aren't a lot of expenses on SMN. Austere gear and Elemental Staves at 50 and 51 are the only things you really need to buy. When it comes to Astral Flow, you have to find the right situations to use it. What is the mob weak to in terms of elemental magic? If you're using AF at full mana, you're not a bright SMN to begin with unless you're just having fun. :P In terms of damage, it still at 75 does comparable damage to the 70 BP's and a hell of a lot more if you manage to burst it. --Pinkfloyd 13:06, 31 July 2006 (PDT) Has anyone gotten an invite as... ...anything not /whm? And if so, what? I've seen a few SMN/BLM from ppl who refuse to main heal, but that's still a rarity. I got SMN up to 37 for sub for RDM (hey, you never know), and I'd like to take it all the way but I also deteste main healing. Chernabog 06:39, 10 July 2006 (PDT) Some people sub RDM, but it's just like subbing WHM minus having status removals. Only WHM, RDM, and possibly BLU are viable subs in normal situations. If you want to make the sacrifice for some accuracy stuff and your staff skill is capped, against T or lower mobs, /thf can be used to SATA Spirit Taker enabling you to perpetuate summons for long periods of time. But that's really only good for amusement and solo play, unless maybe if you have a Claustrum. (But most people will hate you for trying this >.>) Tahngarthor 15:03, 20 September 2006 (EDT) summoning magic skill I posted in the magic skill discussion, but replies yet. In 2005 didn't they make some BPs skill dependant now? Chernabog 22:50, 10 July 2006 (PDT) They talked about it at the event in Santa Monica but have yet to make that change. Pinkfloyd 12:56, 31 July 2006 (PDT) :BOO SE! Grr... Ok, thank you. Chernabog 10:06, 5 August 2006 (EDT) summon skill related changes have just been implemented in today's version update. Tahngarthor 14:40, 18 October 2006 (EDT) S and W Changes *Astral Flow Blood Pacts become comparitively weak and absurdly expensive in higher levels. (Diablos excluded) 1000MP for an AoE spell that does less than your level 70 Blood Pacts is a joke and useless. On the other hand, Astral Flow's Perpetuation cost negation is still usefull at 75 where the associated Blood Pacts are not. Diablos is the only exception to this rule for his Ruinous Omen can knock off up to 99% of a mobs HP and I'll go out on a limb here and say that does include gods, kings and other HNMs. --Zero 22:37, 29 July 2006 (EDT) Astral Flow BPs cost (your level x2) MP, except that if you have more than that, it is all taken. It is normally foolish to use your 2hour at full MP, unless you are using it entirely for MP conservation (which can be helpful in some situations). Tahngarthor 14:53, 20 September 2006 (EDT) : I've not seen an AF in the high levels yet, but I'd wager that blowing a hundred or so MP (ie: when you're LOW ON MP) on an AF BP wouldn't be as sucky as you all make it out to be. Yes, it's foolish to use SMN 2hour at full MP. That's why you do it when you have less! /sigh Now, of course I say this without knowing how much MP you need to have minimum for the high level AFs to work... is it the same as before, or get scaled up? Chernabog 04:04, 31 July 2006 (EDT) 150 at 75 is the minimum cost of using an AFBP and it runs by the scale of your level multiplied by two. And yes, it's as bad as I'm describiing. Eldoran and Zidiane affirm this and Eldoran I've had actualy prove this to me. He did a Spinning Dive on a mob and hit for over 1200 damage with no TP. He releases and we shoot the breeze for a minute. He summons Levi again, uses Astral Flow then Tidal Wave for 800 and all his MP is gone as opposed to the cost of Spinning Dive (164). As with Eagle Eye Shot, as your level increases, the use of the AFBPs severely drop and excluding Diabolos are almost never used at 75. Judging by what you've said sofar in response to me, you've never really seen what it does at higher levels and probably should not comment about it. Astral Flow is not the god two-hour that it would seem to be to non-summoners. --Zero 06:20, 31 July 2006 (EDT) It should be noted here that Spinning Dive does not use TP. Only the magical BPs use TP. Tahngarthor 15:10, 20 September 2006 (EDT) You obviously don't know how to use Astral Flow, Zero. Certainly it can be weaker than the 70 BP's in some spots but certainly not all. You just got to know where to use it. You're not really doing the job justice if you're doing Astral Flow with 1000 MP. It's only as bad as you describe because you don't know the proper situations to use AF's magical attacks. AF most of the time will still do around the same damage as the 70 BP's except for maybe Garuda and especially if you magic burst it. Pinkfloyd 12:53, 31 July 2006 (PDT) If you can pull off a MB (they do MB), it makes a significant difference. :) Tahngarthor 01:12, 21 September 2006 (EDT) Then enlighten me. Certainly in those "Emergency situations" where you need to blow something up you're not going to have the proper SC ready to go on a whim. That's obvious. But then again, You need 150 MP to use a AFBP at 75, so why not just use one of the 70s and conserve a complete drain for something else (Such as your next BP). You, more or less, kinda affirmed my point. AFBP isn't used as much as offensive power as opposed to 70 Blood Pacts simply because of it's absurd cost. --Zero 02:07, 1 August 2006 (EDT) :I did say right off the bat I've never seen it in action. Try and think of it as more a question to clarify your view on the AFBPs (which did kinda seem out of left field). You just basically said (paraphrasing) "AFBPs suck" without saying why (other than a ludicrous comment about blowing 1000 MP, which, if a SMN is doing that, something's wrong). Chernabog 10:16, 5 August 2006 (EDT) ---- I agree with Chernabog, judging the effectiveness of AFBP's without taking in all of the strategy and understanding of what that specific AoE DOES, it's no more than saying that a BLM's nukes are too costly for damage as well. Also, coining AFBP as a weak ability on the basis that it uses 1000 MP? Give me a break. Like Chernabog said, if the SMN is doing that, there is a problem. Also, it seems like Zero never takes into account this is an AoE attack and cannot be negated, blinked, etc. In instances like Dynamis and link situations, Astral Flow Blood Pact can be a very useful tool in reducing the overall HP of ALL surrounding mobs. Also, to say that an AoE ONLY causes 800 damage to ONE mob is absurd. If there are say multiple enemies within the AoE, you are hitting EACH and EVERY one of them for the same damage, increasing your overall damage to the thousands. Actually, a possible change to the strengths list could be to add "Avatar's pet takes all enmity regarding attacks and blood pacts, making Summoner a relatively safe job and great for pulling in link situations." Doctordoom 11:11, 30 August 2006 (EDT) ---- Well said, also, I would like to add seeing that my Best Friend is a 75 SMN and rules at it... that SMN really is a safe and fun job... There are few jobs out there that can solo T++ Mobs and still get chains... I mean BLMs, BSTs, DRGs... SMN is up there with them on the Solo Wagon... I hate leveling SMN, but when I have played his before its actually really fun... I like playing with him... I always feel safe when he is going to help me kill something... --Nynaeve 14:21, 30 August 2006 (EDT) ---- I can't say that BLM's can solo super well, but really ANY job with a "partner" helps. With that said, avatars can make great use of elemental weaknesses, avatars also gain higher tier BLM spells for a smaller MP cost, which helps maintain monster player enmity (hate) on the summoner's pet, not the summoner themself. Also, in PT situations, avatars can be extremely useful for tying up a mob or perhaps even a linked mob with the avatar whhile the summoner and PT zones and drops hate. I've actually done this a few times when the BLM didn't have Escape or the ability to cast Escape, and it works very well. Also summoners in a solo environment can tie up a mob with their avatar after realizing that the battle is not winnable, then zoning while the mob defeats the avatar, in essence getting a headstart on running away from a mob that is too powerful for the summoner, this is very effective as well, making summoner a safe and experience point friendly job. Doctordoom 10:25, 31 August 2006 (EDT) I solo'd as a 75 BLM in Sea all the time =D -- Its easy for BLMs there... In general they aren't as capable of doing it as SMN or other jobs sure but in Sea they are Gods among Men... Hands down. And yes, the SMN is lucky with there run away Strategy... Easy ability to safe ones own life my sacrificing your Avatar... works every time. --Nynaeve Weaknesses :"Astral Flow Blood Pacts become comparitively weak and absurdly expensive in higher levels. (Diablos excluded)" How can this be reworded? It's only "absurdly expensive" if you like using AFBP at full MP... How is it a weakness at all? If you have alternatives to using it, then its not a weakness. --Chrisjander 11:05, 5 August 2006 (EDT) :I dont see it as a big weakness of the job, but some ppl do (Zero for example). Its certainly not as powerful at higher levels... But there are useless 2hours (like Mijin Gakures only real good use as a free warp or avoiding XP loss). Chernabog 00:43, 6 August 2006 (EDT) Yeah, it should probably just be removed, every two hour has its uses, and situations where it has no use. SMN has an enviable position on having one of the most powerful 2hrs for use in BCNMs, so I don't see how it being limited elsewhere makes it an overall weakness. --Chrisjander 00:59, 6 August 2006 (EDT) :Another one. "*Most buffing abilities serve only as a minor damage reduction." This is a weakness? Chernabog 05:41, 6 August 2006 (EDT) ::No discussion on this, my vote would be to remove it. Most buffing abilities (of all jobs) are only minor damage reduction... (ZOMG Protect I-V is a weakness because it's only minor help!) Chernabog 23:38, 10 August 2006 (EDT) Weaknesses suggestion... How about: * Can only use a blood pact once every minute * Unable to effectively deal damage before lv70 These are two major weaknesses that I'm surprised aren't already in there. (Don't even argue with the second one, it's the accepted truth among experienced players.) Matjlav 13:25, 16 September 2006 (EDT) First one: With enough gear Blood pacts can be reduced to I belive once every 45 seconds. Second one: I will argue this one. Sure, the damage isn't godly untill 70, but to say it's ineffective is pretty speculitave. I can do damage along the lines of most DDs with Fenrir and I'm only 34. (SMN/BLM though) --Zero 14:31, 16 September 2006 (EDT) Your argument for the first one is pretty nitpicky. The general idea remains the same. Second, no, you can't deal comparative damage to other DDs at lv34... don't even kid yourself. One bloodpact a minute that deals half the damage of a BLM nuke? Weak avatar melee that drains your MP and has crappy accuracy? No, SMN cannot effectively DD before level 70. And I wouldn't consider the words of anyone who goes SMN/BLM to be true. Seriously... how can you even suggest /BLM contributes more than /WHM? Look, it's been parsed over and over by many people. SMN DD pre-70 is impossible, whether you like it or not, and I fail to see why people still insist that it is. Matjlav 14:51, 16 September 2006 (EDT) If you have pet accuracy merits, or a COR using Puppet Roll, the damage BPs can be accurate enough in level-capped activities and areas. are SMNs going to do a total a mount of damage worth parsing in a party? No. But if you have a good party that needs minimal healing does it hurt to use an offensive BP? No. Tahngarthor 15:08, 20 September 2006 (EDT) ---- Honestly, my best friend has done it... He, as I have stated before, is the best SMN I have ever encountered in game, he was able to DD pre-70 and do it well while at the same time Pulling, Backup Healing, if necessary and Buffing when possible. I do not see your argument, which is pretty much not an argument, just a statement of your opinion stating that well everyone who is anyone thinks so, as very valid or should even be taken seriously. Just because you are not capable of doing doesn't mean others aren't... and to reiterate for the record now - yes, he is a 75 SMN now but he stayed below 70 for such a loooong time that his skill was probably learned along with his disgust of leveling and incompetence. Sure he took parties in which he was acting in the place of a whm when no WHMs were available but there were also parties where I was the WHM or he had another WHM and he was able to act as a true DD pre-70 and did a good job of it... Sure having a minute Recast is difficult but he can still MB as long as the party is competent enough to wait til his Avatar was out and his damage was still just as sufficient, if not higher than the BLMs MB which therefor makes him an asset and makes your statement ludicrious... In between MBs and 1 minute recasts his avatar is still hitting the mob or distracting a link so therefor is still doing good damage. And not only is he capable of doing all this at one time, he is doing this with an Avatar leaving himself open to preform other duties. So many people tend to forget that if you use the right avatar according to either the mobs elemental weakness and combine your skillchain with that you are doing just as much for your party as another DD could be. The main problem with summoner is so many people do not understand how to play with one or even play as one so you are surrounded by bad summoners who would probably be better off simply pretending to be Beastmasters and by incompetent people who are incapable of understanding how they need to react and plan with one in the party. So the only way that would be made an actual weakness was if we concluded that all Summoners and people playing with summoners are incompetent and I do not think we have come to that yet because there are still people out there that can play well and understand the needs of the jobs around them once told what to do. But that is just me, and I have only been playing for, well, years... --Nynaeve 15:37, 16 September 2006 (EDT) I belive my edit got lost somewhere. I digress. Um, I'm doing about as much damage as everyone else in this party is right now with my Avatar. Granted, it's not the most damage but it's not a joke either. Subbing White Mage just makes the main healer in a party lazy. I hated anyone in a party who cured over me at any level. I'm a 75 White Mage. When I'm not playing my White Mage I don't want to play my White Mage. --Zero 15:48, 16 September 2006 (EDT) ---- Nynaeve, avatar melee stinks and drains MP. Your friend shouldn't be keeping his avatar out between blood pacts. I don't buy that he can keep up with the other DDs. And Zero: Benefits of /BLM: *19 more MP at lv75 for a Hume than /WHM *Warp, Tractor, and Escape Benefits of /WHM: *Cure spells *na spells *Curaga line *Raise *Reraise *Sneak and Invisible *Dia You need to get your head examined if you seriously think that /BLM is more helpful to a party than /WHM. Nynaeve - what level is your SMN so that you can testify to the DD power of SMN? I just can"t believe your testimony about your friend. Pulling and backup healing on top of leaving his avatar out to melee and using bloodpacts? That would be a good way to drain all your MP in one fight unless you have Refresh and double Ballad... Matjlav 15:54, 17 September 2006 (EDT) ---- I have never claimed to be a SMN - I only ever leveled it to 37, my testimony is of his abilities as I have seen it and seeing as I have known him for over a year or so now, and he has been playing SMN that whole time, I would know what he could do. Again, your arguments against me are weak and not much like an arguement. No facts supporting your theories just bitching. I have seen what a good SMN can do and just because you are incapable of doing it is by no means a case to list a new weakness as SMN is weak as DD pre-70. Now, in the case of /BLM vs. /WHM: I agree, subbing /BLM is kind of selfish, yes you get slightly more MP and escape at 58. You shouldn't be choosing a Subjob based on your needs but on what the needs of your party must be. If you don't want to run the risk of backup healer or status effect taker-offer, Sub RDM. I know a few SMNs who do that on occasion because with that you gain Phalanx, Dispel, Fast Cast which can aid your party in certain sitautions. I have been in parties before where there was a WHM and a BLM already but no RDM and this can help the party out more than an extra -na caster. If you want to go ridiculous you can even Sub BRD because even that has more benefit to the party than /BLM. But BLM really isn't the best choice for a SMN to sub. EDIT: Also, Matjlav, as your user page says you are at highest a 54 WHM and only a lvl 37 SMN so what on earth are you trying to do passing yourself off as an expert and "experienced" player. lol. --Nynaeve 16:42, 17 September 2006 (EDT) Ok. Let's go with this assumption. Say the Summoner is using a combonation of Artifact and Relic gear, throw in the Evoker's Horn +1 for kicks. That's Two Avatar Accuracy and two Attack bonuses right there plus 6 to INT. That could produce a sheerly devestating combonation of extra attack and accuracy. Now as for Perpetuation costs, HQ elemental staves at 51 chop off 4MP per tick. Auto Refresh takes another 1. Refresh or Double Ballad gives another 3. Let's round out this package with Ying Yang Robe for an extra Refresh. At this point, Carbuncle is Free, Fenrir is down to 2/Tick, Elemental Avatar are at 4 and Spirits are at 9. As for the /BLM concept, I was doing it rather well. Gives more MP and some INT. In the party last night I was doing damage in either first or second place and the other SMN was doing fourth or fifth. It was sick. Granted, you don't get everything from the /WHM in terms of cures, but you the damage you gain can make up for it if you're skilled enough. --Zero 22:57, 17 September 2006 (EDT) Nynaeve, neither of us has definitive proof or documentation of anything. You have no more proof of your friend's ability to DD on par with the other DD's pre-70 than I do that he couldn't; same to Zero. And Zero, as I said above, 19 MP at lv75 isn't going to make the difference between DD and healer. INT has 0 effect on summons. /BLM is mostly useless, and there is seriously no debate about that. Matjlav 15:25, 18 September 2006 (EDT) If INT has no effect on summons, why does the Evoker's Horn give INT then? Got an answer for that one? --Zero 15:31, 18 September 2006 (EDT) There are lots of mysterious situations like this. Stats on an item don't necissairly imply usefulness for the job. All I know is many people have tried stacking INT on SMN with no discernable effects. Tahngarthor 14:59, 20 September 2006 (EDT) Just to lay my thought's down on this i am a 75SMN/WHM and SMN isnt a DD job it is a job what can do a little of everything. just review all your blood pacts from level 1-75 im sure we have sleepga in there somewhere? why would we need then when can use a blm for it?!? why would i have slowga when we can use a rdm? Your arguement's and thought's are all right in certain positions but pre-65 cannot DD at all and SMN becomes more usefull at 70 yes but until that you can save the whm the job of hasting and melee with garuda for fair damage? you can also Growl or Howl and melee with fenrir? and i agree people who are not level 70-75 should not be making suggestion's on what can and cannot be done, you have to try it too know and from my experience DD is possible but isnt as good as a thf or a war/nin. Pzzz --Gav 21:30, 18 September (GMT) ---- Matjlav, I'm not talking about diffinitive proof, I am talking about pure strength in an actual arguement and in this case you have nothing. Gav on the other hand has strong points, not only has he explained, he has used examples to aide his point. Now, Gav, I am not trying to say SMN is a straight DD job, you are absolutely right, SMN can in fact do a little bit of everything. My main point is not that Summoners are just DDs, it is that they can in fact be a DD in the necessisty calls for it. I have seen a SMN DD when the situation allows it.. aka competent Tank, parties ability to do a Skillchain with the SMNs BP timer. Sometimes you have too much Healing/Buffers and you need another DD and when there is no one else SMN can do it and do it well when played by the right person and in the right situations and saying otherwise says either A) you have never been with a good SMN or B) you yourself are incapable of playing around a SMN in this capacity. In other words, incompetence on one part or the other. Now if SMN was a pure DD, in the HNM end-game action they would be DDing not being used for Buffs. But we all know what SMNs are actually used for in these areas, but on the other hand, SMNs are used for AF in certain situations as well... So it can be a toss up... Overall, what Gav said so elequently is true... SMNs can do pretty much everything... it just depends on the situation... I do not agree that SMN can't successfully DD pre-70 though, I have seen it done, I will admit that it was best done Pre-70 after 60 but it still was done before that as well just the situations that we were in really didn't allow that to happen as often. Now Zero... What on earth are you talking about?! INT doesn't affect avatars BP's....>.<' I know this has been tested before, I no longer have the data and if someone wants to retest this to prove it by all means do so, but I have been under the impression that it didn't and when I asked my friend again, he said that I was right and that the only thing /BLM contributes to a SMN is added MP and Warp/Escape spells... Nothing to really benefit the party. Sooooo... >.<' WTF --Nynaeve 16:58, 18 September 2006 (EDT) ---- Well, INT = magic defense or something like that, so it could benefit anyone. Besides, I'm sure maybe SE hoped maybe /BLM and /RDM (although /RDM can be good (particularly for solo'ing because of slightly higher HP/AGI (I think)/VIT/enhancing magic and phalanx)) would be other used support jobs. However, /BLM just does not cut it when you become mid-level. Half of elemental magic skill and little nukes to choose from (basically a DRK's spell list minus the absorb spells) really messes things up. Sure, you can get the highest INT second to only BLMs and tied to RDM and DRK (I think...), but your spells will get resisted a lot due to the low elemental magic skill. DRKs seldom nuke at later levels (from what I have seen), imagine a SMN/BLM. Although I don't really agree with Matjlav, I do like how he said efficiently rather than something like "lolsmndd". Although, maybe for some 70 is too high. It does start to get good at 65. Before that, you even get the tiev IV spells. In fact, some could 50 is where summoner starts to become more of a DD: 50: Double Slap, Auster/Penance 51: Elemental staves 55: Meteorite 50-60: Artifact 60: Tier IV spells (as BPs) 65: Eclipse Bite and Nether Blast 70: Duh 75: Merits (not only the merited BPs, but other merits (particularly summoner merits) can help a summoner's damage output). And elementals (AKA Spirits) are often forgotten... I have more to say I think...but I forgot. ._. --Jopasopa 17:37, 18 September 2006 (EDT) EDIT: I forgot to mention that the INT on the horn could be there since it is a modifier for some weapon skills. Besides, AF tends to have some *seemingly* random stats. --Jopasopa 18:24, 18 September 2006 (EDT) I'll start from the top here. Blood pact time is no more of a weakness than a recast time on a NIN's Utsusemi. Pre-70 DD is also there and yes not at the level of other jobs but definitely not something to spit on. The key to the Summoner's role is flexibility. I do like how Nynaeve praised my skillz. Yes, she is talking about me. I am the man. I am the best. If you don't know, now you know. ^^ I'm not going to say that my job's ability to buff, pull, do damage, and heal or anything is on par with anyone else but it's good enough to the point that it's worth doing. Carbuncle is the most versatile avatar in terms of pretty much anything but pure DD. He won't sap MP, has good accuracy, can heal for cheap, and can burst with Meteorite. All w/o putting any hate on the actual SMN. Level it a little more, Matjlav, and maybe you'll figure these things out as I have. --Pinkfloyd 19:46, 18 September 2006 (EDT) A See Also or something to Pet Commands would be a good idea for this and other pet jobs. How come there doesn't seem to be pages discussing the game interface like this? Tahngarthor 14:59, 20 September 2006 (EDT) Next Version Update [ Summoner ] - Powerful mages with the ability to use their mana to call forth mighty avatars. Changes regarding summoning magic skill: 1. Blood Pact recast time will now be based on the type of special attack used--healing/enhancing or damage dealing. 2. Summoning magic skill may increase not only when summoning an avatar, but also while using Blood Pact. 3. Blood Pact special attack bonuses may be earned while equipping items that give summoning skill bonuses. Please look forward to seeing these changes in the next version update! --Peb 19:03, 28 September 2006 (EDT) How do we get this updated? Blood Pact: Rage and Blood Pact: Ward are not listed in the job yet. How do we get this updated? The easiest way would be by modifying the Blood Pact page and requesting the necessary modifications and the addition of the link to the job description page. --Vervane 15:11, 27 November 2006 (EST) Blood Pact Duration Modifications I made some modifications to the display of Blood Pact durations to help better calculate how much longer one's Blood Pact may last. As far as I know, this display isn't exactly consistent with other ability durations in general. It could be changed if it proves to be more of a problem than anything. --Ksayyah 13:26, 21 December 2006 (EST) Astral Flow and Job Prowess All the statements that Astral Flow becomes useless as your Level progresses is a misconception . in order to understand Astral Flow and how to use it you must first understand how the job Summoner works . Most unlocked jobs are defined by the quests to unlock them . As with Summoner , its one quest to unlock the job and seven quests to unlock seven avatars . Any Summoner over level 51 can tell you this job , like the quests to unlock it , require patience . As a Summoner you can kill just about any monster as long as you're patient . Astral Flow at higher levels , like 70+ , is usually reserved for Perpetuation negation and not used for AFBPs . This fact doesnt make the ability any weaker than lower Levels when it's used to lay waste to everything in the AoE . It's still used for this purpose in Dynamis among other endgame places , but in most cases at high Levels its used mostly for Perpetuation negation .to put this into perspective so many can understand let me explain it like this : a single Black Mage using thier most powerfull AoE spell like Thundaga III on more than one target more than likely , even with sleepga's , wont live long enough to cast another AoE or defeat all the monsters they have engaged . But a group of Black Magi using the same principal can defeat a group of enemies using this technique . This stategem tho can be dangerous to the group however , if just one monster resists Sleep and uses a deadly AoE of thier own , this can be doom for the Black Magi . a Summoner however removes this Danger , in both situations , by having thier pet as the primary target of the monsters . so aslong as there is one avatar alive , the Summoners can re-summon and blast again . This is the very basis of what makes a Summoner possibly the most powerful Mage in the game . Black Magi can outlay more damage in the same amount of time than any job , but it puts the Mage in sever danger caused by the Enmity they create by dealing these massive amounts of damage . Every other job that is able to deal damage has this same crux , except Summoner and Beastmaster . All a Summoner needs is MP and time to summon to ensure thier safety . And considering most higher Level Summoners are able to call forth Carby and perpetuate him for free if not with a 1 MP refresh , this means aslong as the monster being fought doesnt heal themselves i.e Cure spell , Drain ect and as long as the Summoner has room to Kite and is safe from aggro , they can kill anything solo with less risk of being hit than any other job . --MIKUMARU 19:28, 15 April 2008 (UTC) Weaknesses A summoner's biggest weakness after that is said would probly be Enmity .we all know once you engage a monster Enmity is created by everything you do . Enmity caused by 1.)Summoning (the act of and the possiblity of Magic aggro)2.) the use of Blood Pacts 3.) support magics . Let it be known to the Soloing Summoner : Using Blood Pacts , Rage and Ward , will create a large amount of Hate . Once you start its hard to stop and survive . This isnt to say you cant , its just that bleeding off the hate from 2 or 3 BP rages can spell your death . Carby doesnt hit that hard and chances are Meteorite (which again is a BP Rage!!) wont pull that Monster off you , and if it does it might not work again . A summoner is not a DD , its not a Debuff , its not a Support , and its definately not a healer . It's all these things . Like a Red Mage , the role of this job in an EXP party changes as the Level changes . you start as a support healer , then move to main healer , then to a support , then maybe back to healer or if you're lucky a DD . But since most Phys jobs dont like being out damaged by a Mage , you'll be gaining your Levels as a healer/support . In Endgame and Plot alike as a Summoner you serve one purpose and only one purpose : Own everything too dangerous for the Phys jobs and Black Mages to engage directly and live to tell the story . If Summoners have a theorized weakness it would be the jealousy of the other 19 jobs because , as a Summoner75/White Mage37 , you are Invincible . --MIKUMARU 19:26, 15 April 2008 (UTC)